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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2012 20:19:49 GMT -5
Siwon edit: first page noooooooooo. Also, I am trying to separate the good from the bad from celebrities I like, but it can be so hard like, I still like Jennifer Lawrence as an actress and as Katniss, and I look forward to the Hunger Games sequels (not kpop, i know) and I am just trying really hard to not let the stupid stuff she's said ruin that for me, but at the same time, after seeing that commercial Kara did with Nicole's nightmare of being overweight, I don't want to listen to Kara for a loooooooooong time. I'm so conflicted! It sucks when celebrities, who are often my escape, ruin things But I guess that's just inevitable.
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Post by Mr. Keichi on Apr 16, 2012 22:37:52 GMT -5
Yeah no I mean I know the one thing she said about looking normal or whatever sucked, but other than that she's just one of those intentionally quirky people and a lot of people are using that against her for whatever reason. Matthew Gray Gubler has made similar comments before (and basically so has everybody ever, it's not really surprising to see it pop up anymore) and when I see him it's like 'ugh why did you say that man' but I'm not going to let it ruin Criminal Minds/him for me, because I like them.
Even that commercial, crap as it was, didn't upset me as much as I assume that post made it look like it did hahhaha. I mean it totally sucked but whatever.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2012 23:10:20 GMT -5
Her quirkiness, intentional or not, really doesn't bother me but I can see how some people wouldn't like it. The Kara commercial really upset me, though And I kept remembering it whenever a Kara song came up on shuffle yesterday and I had to skip it Sometimes I just have a hard time brushing stuff off.
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Post by Mr. Keichi on Apr 16, 2012 23:41:43 GMT -5
Nah I don't blame you, that seriously sucked.
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Post by Cei on Apr 17, 2012 8:24:46 GMT -5
I feel you,I haven't been able to listen to FT Island after someone made that list of problematic idols and Hongki was on it like 3 times. It's not even an intentional boycott, I just feel weird listening to him. Somehow hasnt affected You're Beautiful or Jeremy though.
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Post by (• ε •) on Apr 17, 2012 11:53:22 GMT -5
I feel the exact same way about hongki. Although I was never really into ftisland, I was rather fond of him. Now I can't see him in the same light no matter how I try.
True story, when I saw that(siwon) gif my immediate thoughts were "What are you doing? I'm pretty sure Jesus would say saranghae back =(" but didn't post it because the fandom would murder me.
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Post by Mindy on Apr 17, 2012 15:49:32 GMT -5
I don't know why, but my mind is all over the place with who it still wants to like despite problematic things. Like... I cannot STAND Zico, Kyung, Leeteuk, and Shindong, to name a few. Don't want to see their faces or hear or voices or anything. But then there are other people, who I feel I should also dislike based on what they've said/done, and I just... don't? Like Hongki. For whatever reason, I don't dislike him (although I don't really care about him anyway since FTI's music hasn't done much for me since 2009, but still). And there are others I feel neutral towards even though I feel like I should not like them. I don't know why it's like that but whatev.
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Post by Eankam on Apr 17, 2012 16:22:04 GMT -5
Late to the party, but.. saying it's a sin implies hell Typically that is just a less severe way of saying you are sending yourself straight to hell, yeah. ...this.. may be how Catholicism works, I really have no idea, but no no no this is not true for the Christianity I brought up with and learned for 20 years.. otherwise.. everyone, Christians included would all be condemned to hell. But I really don't want to get into this more in depth, especially since I'm so shaky on religion right now. But no, I seriously doubt Junsu meant it to mean if you commit suicide, you go to hell. Especially since like.. what.. 4 of Jaejoong's friends committed suicide within a few months of each other? Even if he did believe that, I don't think he would say that knowing it would hurt Jaejoong. Although I was never really into ftisland, I was rather fond of him. Now I can't see him in the same light no matter how I try. Same. And I agree with what Mindy said in the post above this (it won't let me quote it fsr) .. like.. there are some I dislike more than others, but that may be because preexisting affection is getting in the way, I don't know. But, I don't know. I don't know what to say about the Siwon situation and I really don't think it's my place to, but I was surprised.. like Mindy said, I thought he was taking steps away from his past views.. :/ I suppose I always expect people to mess up, idols included. It's my first reaction to forgive, and sometimes it bothers me, like, maybe I shouldn't let you off the hook just because I don't like being consumed with negative emotions.. But then again, from birth, my mother has drilled forgiveness into me with a power drill.. I don't even know if what most of what I am saying even makes sense, but I can't think of any idol that I dislike for a time when they slipped up and did something stupid.. even if I didn't really like them to begin with. :/ I guess what I am saying is that for me, inexcusable behavior =/= unforgivable (in most cases). But I totally see where everyone else is coming from and you're perfectly entitled to want nothing to do with them. The theme of this post has been... x
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Post by (• ε •) on Apr 17, 2012 17:23:57 GMT -5
But, I don't know. I don't know what to say about the Siwon situation and I really don't think it's my place to, but I was surprised.. like Mindy said, I thought he was taking steps away from his past views.. :/ I suppose I always expect people to mess up, idols included. It's my first reaction to forgive, and sometimes it bothers me, like, maybe I shouldn't let you off the hook just because I don't like being consumed with negative emotions.. But then again, from birth, my mother has drilled forgiveness into me with a power drill.. I don't even know if what most of what I am saying even makes sense, but I can't think of any idol that I dislike for a time when they slipped up and did something stupid.. even if I didn't really like them to begin with. :/ I guess what I am saying is that for me, inexcusable behavior =/= unforgivable (in most cases). But I totally see where everyone else is coming from and you're perfectly entitled to want nothing to do with them. It's not so much that I don't forgive idols who have said things I disagree with or that I dislike them. Rather it's that I cannot feel comfortable supporting and funding people if they hold certain views if those views are hurtful to many of the people I love and care for (Particularly if there's a pattern of it over time) Forgiveness shouldn't mean that we let things continuously slide under the radar without ever addressing them or holding people accountable. edit: somehow I managed to accidentally post a gyu gif in this post. I am getting out of control.
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Post by Eankam on Apr 17, 2012 18:12:58 GMT -5
Oh, yes, I totally understand that, Nicky. I guess those were sort of displaced thoughts that belong on tumblr, not really in response to what anyone said in here. I just don't feel like bringing up crap on tumblr and having a billion fan girls pulling the "oppa didn't mean it" card (which, they would) so I keep my mouth shut because I really don't have the energy for it. And in terms of the pattern, yes. I think that is what bothers me the most.. especially Shindong.. the first couple of things he said, I didn't really get bothered by it but it's just never ending with him, so I don't think there is much hope in his case And, I hope my post didn't come across as me not holding them accountable for what they do, because that is not true. Every slip up deserves the consequences that arise from it, I agree with that. The most troubling part about idol slip ups are the people that defend them blindly and don't realize what they are saying and just make everything worse
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Post by Mindy on Apr 17, 2012 18:33:59 GMT -5
It's not so much that I don't forgive idols who have said things I disagree with or that I dislike them. Rather it's that I cannot feel comfortable supporting and funding people if they hold certain views if those views are hurtful to many of the people I love and care for (Particularly if there's a pattern of it over time) Forgiveness shouldn't mean that we let things continuously slide under the radar without ever addressing them or holding people accountable. Yes, all of this. I've given up on several idols and sometimes even the groups they are in as a whole not because I hate their guts and think they're the worst people and that no one should ever give them the time of day, but simply because things they have said/done have made me feel too uncomfortable to continue supporting them. And in terms of the pattern, yes. I think that is what bothers me the most.. especially Shindong.. the first couple of things he said, I didn't really get bothered by it but it's just never ending with him, so I don't think there is much hope in his case And this. As we all know, humans make mistakes, no one is perfect, etc. etc. But there are some who seem to screw up again and again, and there comes a point where I just have to say, "All right, see ya."
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Post by Eankam on Apr 17, 2012 18:42:26 GMT -5
And okay, this is something I have been meaning to say for awhile, but I am really happy I met/befriended all of you because you really have taught me a lot I am the maknae, haha, and I think it really shows sometimes. I grew up in an extremely sheltered environment. I mean.. extremely, and I was ignorant of so much.. still am. But all of you have just opened my eyes to different ways of thinking so extensively and I really appreciate it. I think I have been growing out of my ignorance and have even found myself calling out my parents and siblings on a daily basis for things they say that never would have occurred to me to speak out against before, but now seem so obvious. Intelligence means virtually nothing when paired with absolute ignorance, so thank you all, really. <3
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Post by Eankam on Apr 17, 2012 18:43:34 GMT -5
In other news... I thought this was kinda really amazing.
And Yunho cried for the first time in like 15 years or something ;~~;
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Post by Cei on Apr 17, 2012 19:31:10 GMT -5
I feel the exact same way about hongki. Although I was never really into ftisland, I was rather fond of him. Now I can't see him in the same light no matter how I try. Yeah, I was really into The band and Hongki. I think the more I like an idol the harder it is to deal with what they've done when they fuck up. Particularly when it is violent or displaying abusive tendencies. I still can't deal with the Jaejoong thing. I've got mixed feelings about it intellectually, but looking at him does not make me feel anything but uncomfortable.
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Post by (• ε •) on Apr 18, 2012 12:35:29 GMT -5
Maknae <3
Also you and me, same same. Though my family can be liberal leaning at times there are tons of things I wouldn't have ever thought about prior to the nomb/omb/kpop crew.
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Post by (• ε •) on Apr 18, 2012 13:27:33 GMT -5
Cei, the jae thing. Yeah. I've emotionally detached from jae's fandom and jae. Partly because of the fans Mostly because of the fans partly because there doesn't seem to be any acknowledgement of it at all. There just seems to either be a whole lot of silence or "OMG YOU ARE A BAD FAN FOR NOT SUPPORTING JJ NO MATTER WHAT!!!1!1 HOW DARE YOU SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT OPPA CAN'T YOU SEE HE IS STRESSED".
Plus there's the "Get out of the fandom" shtick. We apparently can be kicked out of the fandom by True Fans™ if we dare speak up about anything.
No one is perfect, but I will take an imperfect person who acknowledges that they're imperfect over someone who doesn't any day. I have done and said a fair amount of shitty things in my lifetime and will continue to do and say shitty things in the future. But it takes doing shitty things and having people respond "hey that is kind of shitty, could you not?" for a person to become a slightly better person. The effect is cumulative. IDK... IMO the lack of acknowledgement is what makes a person shitty/bad/etc. Tangent!
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Post by Bonamanda on Apr 18, 2012 17:44:32 GMT -5
I never liked Siwon much to begin with so I guess what he said wasn't especially as hurtful to me personally as it was just another reason for me to write him off :/ The thing that sucked most about it for me was just seeing people laugh about it and shit and being reminded that people don't see anything wrong with things like that. I completely understand people's decision to try and ignore it for their own sake or forgive him or whatever though. I don't really even actively dislike him as much as I just have absolutely no interest in him. Yeah no I mean I know the one thing she said about looking normal or whatever sucked, but other than that she's just one of those intentionally quirky people and a lot of people are using that against her for whatever reason. Matthew Gray Gubler has made similar comments before (and basically so has everybody ever, it's not really surprising to see it pop up anymore) and when I see him it's like 'ugh why did you say that man' but I'm not going to let it ruin Criminal Minds/him for me, because I like them. I think I have def been guilty of the attacking Jennifer Lawrence for her quirkiness thing I am obvs pretty bitter about the shit she said about eating disorders and being normal or whatever so I know I have kind of let that take over but it has nothing to do with anything and I don't know why I'd go out of my way to get mad at her and I should stop that bitter bitter. And yeah what that Gubler dude said def kind of ruined him for me but I wouldn't expect anyone to feel the same way or quit the show or anything for it. Just my own personal bitterness haha. And none of this really added anything I just kind of agreed with all your points anyway so I don't know why I'm still typing oops I don't know why, but my mind is all over the place with who it still wants to like despite problematic things. Pretty much same for me I think I'm pretty much on the same page as Cei though with what she said about having a harder time with people fucking up when it's someone I really liked before. And obviously it has to do with how bad they fucked up too. Like the Siwon thing bothered me but what Jaejoong did completely changed how I see him. I still haven't been able to listen to DBSK since and I used to absolutely love them
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Post by Mr. Keichi on Apr 18, 2012 18:31:26 GMT -5
Oh no dude I think intentionally quirky is usually pretty annoying too hahhahah. Like on her it's not endearing or anything, I've just seen people like SUPER ATTACK her for being how she is. But regular complaints about her 'quirkiness' I get hahahah. Like we get it, you say things to get attention. Stop being obnoxious about it. I thought it was totally endearing for the first like five minutes before I realized everything that came out of her mouth was QUIRK hahhaha.
I was pretty sure MGG was ruined for you, I thought I remembered you responding pretty strongly to it (REASONABLY SO please don't misunderstand hahahha I totally don't blame you at all). I'm just so used to see so many people drone on and on about how gross and horrible fat people are that when I see somebody make some offhanded comment or some stupid fat joke it's like.. I can barely hold it against them because fat jokes are made to my face so often that I can't expect some random stranger to be any different just because they are famous and I like them hahahah. Not that it's okay or makes me feel good, hahahahah. Just try to remain indifferent so my feathers aren't ruffled all the time.
And I hate that I still see the tone of what he was saying in a kind of positive way (the skinny-trashing not included, obviously) because I am just used to seeing so many people talking about how bodies like mine are gross that seeing a positive line like that was just a !! moment hahahah. Of course he then proceeded to ruin it by throwing so many women under the bus WHY COULDN'T YOU HAVE SAID THE RIGHT THING FOR US, MGG. JUST ONE TIME WOULD SOMEBODY SAY THE RIGHT THING AND THEN NOT COMPLETELY MUCK IT UP. JUST SAY YOU ARE INTO SOME CHUB AND THEN SHUT UP.
Actually while typing this I am pretty sure I mixed up two different things he said hahahah. One was some girlfriend wanted ad or something where he said something about bigger girls being encouraged to respond and then I think the other was just trashing skinnies, right? I don't know. Maybe that's why I am able to think of what he said in an alright way, because it was actually something completely different hahahah. Also most of the time (like when self-esteem is particularly low hahahah) I convince myself that he really meant thick enough that he could claim he liked bigger girls without actually liking bigger girls because yuck. Cynical cindy over here.
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Post by Bang on Apr 18, 2012 18:32:42 GMT -5
No one is perfect, but I will take an imperfect person who acknowledges that they're imperfect over someone who doesn't any day. I have done and said a fair amount of shitty things in my lifetime and will continue to do and say shitty things in the future. But it takes doing shitty things and having people respond "hey that is kind of shitty, could you not?" for a person to become a slightly better person. The effect is cumulative. IDK... IMO the lack of acknowledgement is what makes a person shitty/bad/etc. Tangent! Yeppp, I'm the same. I'll always give a certain amount of leeway to someone who says "hey, you're right, that thing I said was really awful," because shit, how many of us were born into this society with a full understanding of complex social justice issues? I've always been super-liberal, but I damn well know I've said some shitty slut-shaming and feminist-hating things in the past, and when somebody said to me "hey, you know that thing, why do you think that?" I realised I kind of just thought it because mainstream society thinks it and I didn't know any better. We all learn. It's when people refuse to listen to reason, or refuse to acknowledge and/or care that their actions are hurtful, that I'm like "nope". There are so few people in KPOP I actually like now that I don't even pay attention. I guess I'm not an ~active~ k-popper any more anyway, in that while I love the bands I'm listening to I'm not seeking out new ones either. The problem is KPOP is as mainstream in Korea as western pop music is here, and as with any mainstream media source, you're bound to face a barrage of bullshit if you follow it long enough
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Post by Bonamanda on Apr 18, 2012 19:19:58 GMT -5
Oh no dude I think intentionally quirky is usually pretty annoying too hahhahah. Like on her it's not endearing or anything, I've just seen people like SUPER ATTACK her for being how she is. But regular complaints about her 'quirkiness' I get hahahah. Like we get it, you say things to get attention. Stop being obnoxious about it. I thought it was totally endearing for the first like five minutes before I realized everything that came out of her mouth was QUIRK hahhaha. I was pretty sure MGG was ruined for you, I thought I remembered you responding pretty strongly to it (REASONABLY SO please don't misunderstand hahahha I totally don't blame you at all). I'm just so used to see so many people drone on and on about how gross and horrible fat people are that when I see somebody make some offhanded comment or some stupid fat joke it's like.. I can barely hold it against them because fat jokes are made to my face so often that I can't expect some random stranger to be any different just because they are famous and I like them hahahah. Not that it's okay or makes me feel good, hahahahah. Just try to remain indifferent so my feathers aren't ruffled all the time. And I hate that I still see the tone of what he was saying in a kind of positive way (the skinny-trashing not included, obviously) because I am just used to seeing so many people talking about how bodies like mine are gross that seeing a positive line like that was just a !! moment hahahah. Of course he then proceeded to ruin it by throwing so many women under the bus WHY COULDN'T YOU HAVE SAID THE RIGHT THING FOR US, MGG. JUST ONE TIME WOULD SOMEBODY SAY THE RIGHT THING AND THEN NOT COMPLETELY MUCK IT UP. JUST SAY YOU ARE INTO SOME CHUB AND THEN SHUT UP. Actually while typing this I am pretty sure I mixed up two different things he said hahahah. One was some girlfriend wanted ad or something where he said something about bigger girls being encouraged to respond and then I think the other was just trashing skinnies, right? I don't know. Maybe that's why I am able to think of what he said in an alright way, because it was actually something completely different hahahah. Also most of the time (like when self-esteem is particularly low hahahah) I convince myself that he really meant thick enough that he could claim he liked bigger girls without actually liking bigger girls because yuck. Cynical cindy over here. Ah yes I see what you're saying. I still feel bad because I think the only reason her ~quirkiness~ even caught my attention was because I was already bitter about the eating disorder thing haha. Otherwise I probably would have just ignored her but yeah. Haha yeah. No man in the scheme of things a couple of people saying shit about eating disorders or thin people is nothing compared to society's constant fat shaming. It sucks but I know it's never going to effect me in the same way. I guess what mostly gets to me is when people get into eating disorder territory or whatever because it's already embarrassing and weird for me to talk about so like it sucks to hear. MGG didn't even go there so it's whatever but like “Ive seen so many beautiful curvy women gain success in hollywood and then wither into bobble headed stick figures in some grotesque attempt to fit a revolting hollywood trend. I like real women, not the broomsticks that Hollywood has been selling lately.” yeah haha. Just bobble headed stick figures and broomsticks thanks for that bro. I never even heard about the other thing he said so I have no idea but this is the one that ticked me off.
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Post by Mr. Keichi on Apr 18, 2012 19:25:31 GMT -5
GodDAMN that is harsh.
Yeah I was thinking of two completely different things hahahah.
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Post by Mindy on Apr 18, 2012 21:21:10 GMT -5
I think what really pisses me off is that, as usual, it's not about who a woman is as a person, but her body. Who cares if you're lovely, because to MGG you're just a bobble-headed stick figure, or to somebody else you're just a fat chick. Always about the body. UGH now I'm all upset hahaha.
Anyway I can't remember what all else I was going to respond to because you guys have posted so much since I was last here, SO! I will just say that you are all wonderful and I love you.
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Post by Tanya on Apr 18, 2012 23:14:55 GMT -5
GOOD THREAD IS GOOD.
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Post by Cei on Apr 18, 2012 23:20:11 GMT -5
Haha but MGG is a bobbleheaded broomstick! Weedy boy you have got double standards.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2012 2:07:39 GMT -5
I will just say that you are all wonderful and I love you. <333
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Post by Cei on Apr 19, 2012 4:44:12 GMT -5
Cei, the jae thing. Yeah. I've emotionally detached from jae's fandom and jae. Partly because of the fans Mostly because of the fans partly because there doesn't seem to be any acknowledgement of it at all. There just seems to either be a whole lot of silence or "OMG YOU ARE A BAD FAN FOR NOT SUPPORTING JJ NO MATTER WHAT!!!1!1 HOW DARE YOU SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT OPPA CAN'T YOU SEE HE IS STRESSED". Plus there's the "Get out of the fandom" shtick. We apparently can be kicked out of the fandom by True Fans™ if we dare speak up about anything. No one is perfect, but I will take an imperfect person who acknowledges that they're imperfect over someone who doesn't any day. I have done and said a fair amount of shitty things in my lifetime and will continue to do and say shitty things in the future. But it takes doing shitty things and having people respond "hey that is kind of shitty, could you not?" for a person to become a slightly better person. The effect is cumulative. IDK... IMO the lack of acknowledgement is what makes a person shitty/bad/etc. Tangent! Your feelings are my feelings exactly. I really wanted to talk it out when the whole thing was going on, but I try to stay out of kpop fandom as much as possible on tumblr. I can't deal with BUT OPPAAAAAAAAAA. I don't know why I didn't think of coming here! Also I agree with Min. You guys = <3
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Post by (• ε •) on Apr 19, 2012 6:26:28 GMT -5
The kpop thread has suddenly become a forum for discussing the ills of society. I like.
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Post by Cei on Apr 19, 2012 7:54:06 GMT -5
Tumblr to it's friends.
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Post by Bonamanda on Apr 20, 2012 21:10:16 GMT -5
<3333333333 for everyone
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Post by kr on Apr 23, 2012 11:40:33 GMT -5
well goodness i've missed some good discussions in here
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